Pause On The Play Ep 22

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Hello, hello and welcome back to Pause on the Play. As always, it is amazing to see you here where you are challenged to examine your beliefs, question your predisposed notions, and consider realities you may be unfamiliar with in order to understand that they too are real. I am your host and conversation emcee for the day Erica Courdae here to get the dialogue going.

Erica Courdae:                   I am fortunate, I have my co-host, I told you I'm going to start calling her my co-host. She's going to claim it whether she wants it or not, India Jackson of Flaunt Your Fire in the house. I'm actually going to start off, India would you like to tell them a little bit more about Flaunt Your Fire?

India Jackson:                    I am super, super excited. We actually recently began the process of getting my personal brand, India Jackson, its own identity that is separate from my visual marketing agency, and we are owning that we are a visual marketing agency. All right finally, it's taken us what, like 10 years?

Erica Courdae:                   Yeah, about right.

India Jackson:                    I have you to thank for a lot of that. Really just being the the foot in my ass.

Erica Courdae:                   Well, you know.

India Jackson:                    I feel like I'm supposed to say, because this is the podcast episode, "Being the amazing coach that carefully guided me along the way..." No, you eventually put your foot in my ass, which I needed.

Erica Courdae:                   Sometimes that's exactly what the job entails.

India Jackson:                    It exactamundo for really just stepping in a place where we were no longer playing small, and we were no longer saying that we were just a photography business, because we do so much more than that. It's interesting to see your growth as a coach and to watch how that just rubbed off on everything you touch, including our friendship, and to not letting me play small and to step into this bigger place with my business. Thank you.

Erica Courdae:                   Oh, you're welcome. I am just excited to see how Flaunt Your Fire just blossoms and just turns into full badassery incarnate. I'm excited.

India Jackson:                    Same, same. I am really excited about our conversation today too.

Erica Courdae:                   You and me both. This is where my little moment of jealousy pops up, and we have apparently made plans for next year because this needs to happen. But my lovely co-host had the amazing opportunity to go to Afropunk in New York last month. If you don't know about it, I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time talking about it. I'm just going to say it is amazing, it is music, it is culture, it is inclusion, it is acceptance. It's fucking amazing. Looking it up, you can get a full gamut of it. But she went and we had a lot of really good conversations around what she saw, what she felt, what she took away from it, and I thought that it would be a very interesting conversation to have, just to... kind of... Can I get a little bit of insight into what having this kind of experience can do for you. I'm going to let you start by just talking a little bit about what you maybe thought it was going to be and what you first got when you arrived there.

India Jackson:                    I've been to concerts before, both outdoor festivals style, indoor, seated, intimate. I figured I knew what I was walking into, but let's just say I had no idea. It literally felt like what I would imagine... I mean, I was born in the 80's, so what do I know? But I would imagine Woodstock felt like for our parents back in the days where people were getting high as a kite and wearing the bell bottoms, but it was like black Woodstock on crack. I wasn't ready. It was so different than anything I've ever experienced. It was so much more than music. It was people coming together celebrating their own identities. Really just being a place of love and support and fully being able to step into the fluidity of who you are and what that meant for you. From the fashion that they wore down to the way that they walk, the way that they carried themselves singing out loud to the music. It was just a really unique experience.

India Jackson:                    I think that one of the things that really stood out to me is how they marketed this event, said so much to me. I didn't see a lot of the things that were being put out there before I went, but once I was there, they had this huge installation and I had no idea what company was behind it, but it immediately drew me to it because it was this beautiful gold reflective wall. As I got closer, I could read that it said, "Share black stories," and it had the Instagram icon. You had all these people lining up to take pictures in front of this wall. I actually took one myself in front of the wall.

India Jackson:                    I'm expecting that Afropunk invested all this money into this installation. On the other side they had this huge set up, it was fake clouds. I mean just from a visual marketing perspective and an artist perspective, it was really cool. They had all these crowns for people to wear and different head pieces. I got to know one of the girls that was taking pictures for people with their cell phones. She actually said Instagram supported that and that they had launched a whole...

Erica Courdae:                   That's interesting.

India Jackson:                    ... I know, called, 'Hashtag, share black stories', not to be plugging Instagram, but I'm like, I didn't even know that this was a thing or that diversity was on Instagram's radar enough to where they would invest money into this because there's no way that that thing didn't cost several thousand dollars to put there. It's just really, really cool to see how they rolled it out.

Erica Courdae:                   I think it is very interesting because I feel like whenever someone goes to a festival, especially in the age of festivals being very commonplace, they're all a little different, but you have your idea of what this is going to be, what this is, what this isn't, what type of people are going to be there, what the experience is going to look and feel like.

India Jackson:                    Yeah. I think that, that stood out to me too, that I had these preconceived notions of how a concert should go as much as I think that I'm open minded. Even I had like, "Oh yeah, been there, done that." But there was so many surprises that I was not expecting. It's just a really interesting place to be in. One of the big things that stood out to me as well is there were nonprofits there. I'm going to guess that Afropunk gave them free space, but they called the shopping area activism row I believe. While you did have places that you could patronize that were selling everything from apparel to body products, I was very surprised to see that they were mostly black-owned businesses.

India Jackson:                    Most of them were also local and based in New York or started out of New York because I went to Afropunk in Brooklyn. There was this thing that they had for it that really stood out to me, and I took a picture of it, but it went through the nose and I was like, "Erica would be all over this." No sexism, no racism, no ableism, no ageism, no homophobia, no fatphobia, no transphobia, no hatefulness, and no Trumpism. Everything is in white on this black background until you get to the no Trumpism which was either in hot pink or red every time. I was like, "Oh! Well now I know what kind of space I stepped into 100%."

India Jackson:                    They made an announcement as soon as it started on day one that if you did anything or said anything to make someone feel like they didn't belong there because of fitting into one of these categories, or because of how they looked, or whatever it may be, that you would immediately be asked to leave. It's zero tolerance. I don't think I've ever been to an event that has addressed that, and I have been to a lot of events.

Erica Courdae:                   I actually haven't. Right. I feel like more often than not, it ends up being, "Oh, we're all here, they're an asshole. You've got to keep going."

India Jackson:                    Yeah. But I think that there's something to be said about that, because leading with that also meant that, to have so many people that had these big bold personalities all in one space, I didn't see what I think most people will be afraid of at a large event like that, which is fighting and rudeness. I mean, it was literally, you could have gave them all CBD oil or weed and it would have been Kumbaya. But maybe put it out front, "This is zero tolerance, number one. Number two, here's what we stand for. Here's our values, here's our beliefs, and if this ain't for you, then you don't belong here."

Erica Courdae:                   Well, and it sets the expectation and the boundaries from the word go, so there is no, "Oh, I wasn't aware. I didn't know." There is no, "I didn't realize that this was not acceptable." It is being very clear what the ethics and values are and what that energy was supposed to be channeling, and what was absolutely a no go and was going to get your ass thrown out. Yeah. I think it's important to have a space where people that fit into any of those categories, whether it's because that's how they choose to identify or maybe even how they're identified by someone else, is able to know that there's a safe space when they likely regularly, or at least at some point, have experienced feeling as though they were not in a safe space.

India Jackson:                    Agreed. It really stood out to me that I don't think I'd ever been at an event that just clearly walking in you knew you were in a safe space to be yourself and that you wouldn't, or at least you would hope that you wouldn't be treated any differently for that. If you were, all you had to do was grab somebody with a security jacket on and they would put the person out, no questions asked. Very different experience to be a part of. As I would walk around and just look at the different tables and see what people were selling, or what causes they were talking about. I mean, you had so many different kinds of things from Thinx they were handing out free period panties to an appearance from Spike Lee. He had a booth set up selling some of his T-shirts and apparel and taking pictures with people who bought things from his booth.

India Jackson:                    There were just some things that really stood out to me. One of the booths that I stopped at was called Fuck A False Arrest. It was a nonprofit that started, based in New York, but they're looking to expand where you could literally call this hotline, and it didn't matter what happened. If you felt like you were falsely accused, falsely arrested, that you had support to help you work this out with legal services or whatever it may be. It just really hit me that, "Yes, I'm a black female. But just really seeing how there's all these different causes that I don't really consider on a daily basis, even being a minority female. That organizations are being created daily, that I wasn't even aware existed, to help support different things.

Erica Courdae:                   I think that that is part of something I've talked about before in that privilege is not simply white privilege, because I feel like that's come up and it's much bigger than that. Being that, that isn't something that was on your radar as a regular daily thing. Now, side note, that does not mean that anything including law enforcement with a person of color can tend to be already tinged with a certain sense of, "I don't want anything to do with this." That is not the same as feeling as though being falsely arrested is on your radar as something that could happen at any given time in your neighborhood because you see it happen. I don't think it's the same as just, feeling as though maybe it's more likely, because even though, it can happen. It can absolutely happen. It is very different when the likelihood or the possibility of is different.

India Jackson:                    Yeah. I think that it's one of the organizations that stood out to me the most because I'm like, "Wow, I know that this is a thing but it's staring me in the face right now." It's something that, I've been blessed to say that maybe I do have privilege in to where, at this point in my life thus far, I haven't had to worry if I was pulled over. But there are other people that do. I end up donating to that cause because I can clearly see it's a thing. I had a full blown conversation with the person that was there about, "What would it take for you to expand to other cities?"

Erica Courdae:                   It's a part of that whole, once you see it, you can't unsee it. You can't unsee the reality hitting you in the face that this is a necessity, even if it's not a necessity that you regularly need to take advantage of. That in itself tells you that there are some things things that need to be adjusted, and that's the mild way of putting it.

India Jackson:                    100%. I think what also stood out to me was, Target was a big sponsor of the event. I know people may have some feelings one way or another about Target, but I was very surprised to see that when you walked into their installation, they hired a black artist to paint the inside. They had a display that I photographed and it was like a series of circles that went around each other and they were made up of hair and makeup products, and beauty products in general, body products as well. It said in the center, "Made by and for you." They were honoring products that are sold at Target that are actually made by black-owned businesses. There were so many in the circle that I didn't even know, prior to that point, were black-owned. It just makes you say that sometimes it's a lack of awareness as to why we're not supporting businesses that are owned by people that don't look like us. Maybe we don't even know that that option is there, but they are out there in these commercial businesses and big box stores that we patronize.

Erica Courdae:                   It just so happens that one of the lines in there is a line that I actually retail in my salon over in Silver Immersion land. Being that it is a small black female owned company definitely is one of the reasons why I continue to support them because I've seen the growth and the amazing things that they're trying to do. Knowing that I grew up with the access to products and education and knowledge for hair that looked like mine looked very different. A part of supporting that is because I want that to continue. I want that self love and worth and awareness around what makes somebody unique and you supporting that for them as an individual being a part of normalcy. I want those things to absolutely be normalized.

India Jackson:                    I completely agree. I think from a marketing and branding standpoint, one of the things that stands out to me is that I rarely watch television or listen to the radio, but when I do, or even just being on Instagram and Facebook, I don't see ads for these businesses. When surveys pop up or when you register for something that asks your ethnicity, I put African American even though I have other things mixed in me. I'm like, "Why am I not seeing ads for these black owned businesses? But I see Garnier or I see Pantene Pro V all the time. I wonder where's the visibility for these brands?" It made my heart smile to see that they got so much visibility at this event, and that awareness being brought there to people to say, "Here's an option that you may not have known existed or you may not have realized was even minority owned.

Erica Courdae:                   I think that, that's a part of the importance of minority owned businesses regardless of what that minority is. It's not part of the majority and therefore bringing light to that is very important. I think that's just... Again, going back to the whole, vote with your dollars thing, that we do, it is important that businesses that don't get the same type of access/platform are given that access and platform wherever possible so that they can get, I can't even say a fair shake. Because the fact that you even have to do that shouldn't be a thing, but they can get as much of an opportunity as hopefully the next business or at least damn close as we're fighting for that to not even have to be a thing.

India Jackson:                    Yeah. I think one of the overwhelming themes from that experience that I honestly, even looking back now it being a couple of weeks later, have to say it changed me and it opened my eyes to so many different things. Partly it's because I was able to see the lack of visibility for these organizations, these businesses, the lack of awareness that they're there. Many of these musicians I had never even heard of, and their work was just so beautiful. I mean, there was no auto tune. For those of you who may not know, it's basically a way to enhance somebody's voice artificially. I was seeing people play actual instruments instead of having prerecorded music. I'm like, "Wow, why do I not know that these people are here? Why is it that the only thing that I see over and over again is the Beyonce's and the Jay Z's, but these indie artists just, they're not getting the attention?"

India Jackson:                    I think the other thing I saw was, it's okay to be yourself, it's okay to take up space. That was very... it really stood out to me and impacted me to see people just stepping into who they are, whether that was they were born male but they were wearing dresses and their makeup was done better than mine, or whatever it may have been. But just owning that and saying, "Here I am, take me as I am, I'm not going to water this down or be something else." I can also support you and me doing that instead of having to... I think people can sometimes be afraid of, it's like stepping into yourself is now going to take away from someone else, and it totally didn't. It actually helped the other people feel more empowered to be more of themselves.

Erica Courdae:                   For anyone that maybe is not familiar with the term taking up space, taking up space is basically just deciding that who and what you are authentically from your core. You are going to be there and you are not going to minimize that in order to make it easy for someone else, in order to assuage someone else's guilt or discomfort or to simply minimize something that allows somebody else to be okay with you being in the room.

Erica Courdae:                   A lot of the things that you talked about when it said no transphobia, no fatphobia. These are things that people commonly will comment on in reference to taking up space. "Oh, I mean she's really big. I mean, I'm really nervous about her health." No you're not. Her big body makes you uncomfortable. I need you to call it what it is. "Oh, I mean, but they're trans. They're confused." No, they're not confused. Birth got it fucked up and they decided that they were going to fix it. You are nervous because you can't fit them in a box and that you feel as though it needs to look a certain way, and because it doesn't, and you can't equate it to something that you can easily describe or decipher or understand or digest, somehow it is now less valid.

Erica Courdae:                   Taking up space is saying, "Fuck that. I'm going to show up as I am and you can do what you will with it." There is something to be said for showing up and taking up space regardless of what it is about you that is making someone else feel a certain way. Now, the flip side of that, that can go left and be problematic, if you go there and you treat them like an oddity, then you are taking up space in a place that wasn't meant for you. You are appropriating something that wasn't meant for you. Taking up space can be negative if you don't respect who's space you're stepping into. But if you step into a space and decide, "I am going to take up all of the space that is necessary for me to be whole," that is what needs to happen. Does that sound about right?

India Jackson:                    100%, and it definitely brings me to, I think one of my first major experiences since you started really having conversations with me within our friendship about diversity, even before you went into coaching that I was like, "Oh shit, I get it now, and it was literally Afropunk. I'm here and I'm like, old mindset would have been, "This is diversity, right? I mean it's black people here, there's men and women." No diversity of diversity, and seeing that they got that, that they led with that, that they were, yes to gender fluidity, yes to whatever was that was within breaking down even more diversity. Yes to people who were a heavier size, yes to all these different things. Yet here I am and coming from my privilege, I'm in VIP tickets, and I got over to VIP early so I could get a good seat near the stage because back problems so nobody going to be standing for hours on end.

Erica Courdae:                   Ain't nobody got time for that.

India Jackson:                    Yes, and I'm with someone else while I'm there and we have two good seats. Every time one of us needed to go to the bathroom or somebody else in my party needed to go get something to eat it was, "Can I have your seat? Is anybody sitting there?" I might offend some people with this but I don't give a fuck. The black people would ask and it was like, "No, somebody's sitting here. You see the bag there." "Okay," they keep it moving.

India Jackson:                    The very few white people would ask, and they did not keep it moving. I literally had one woman put her foot in the seat without asking after I said, "Somebody's sitting here." Mind you, we have a VIP bag with some personal items in it, a water bottle, knocked the fucking water bottle over onto the ground. I'm like, "Who does that?" Unbeknownst to me, prior to this happening when I went to use the restroom, somebody else that was with me was holding my seat for me with a bag, and an older white woman comes by with her friend and says, "Can I sit there?" This person says, "No, the seat belongs to someone else," and then proceeds to try to haggle her way into temporarily sitting in the seat anyway until I get back.

Erica Courdae:                   This is taking up space in the wrong way. This is entitlement.

India Jackson:                    I was just like, on one hand I'm-

Erica Courdae:                   Disrespectful AF.

India Jackson:                    Disrespectful as fuck. On one hand I'm like, "Who does that?" But on the other hand I'm like, "There's white people here, but they're really outnumbered. Why do they have to be the offenders?" I'm rooting for them. I wanted to be like, "Yay, other ethnicities here to support, which is really a black Afrocentric event." It's open to everybody, but it's for black people. But on the other hand I'm like, "You're ruining your image for your people right now."

Erica Courdae:                   I'm going to tell you as the person on the outside, when we talked about this, for me it felt like, "We can't have anything. You must insert yourself and take over everything." That is the first thing that came to my mind. "Damn, can there not be one space where you don't come in and try to take over and colonize please and thank you?" Hello Brooklyn gentrification. I see you.

India Jackson:                    Oh, slow motion on that side. I know... I'll say that, I am the most, smile until you can't smile anymore, kill them with kindness person. Erica, you can vouch for this. If there is a situation, I'm going to be the one to talk us out of it rather than start throwing some bows. For those of you all that don't have that reference, it's a Ludacris reference for fighting, you throwing them elbows

India Jackson:                    I don't think I've ever been more upset at a public event with somebody I didn't know in my life until Afropunk, and it really struck me as jarring to be a black woman that honestly, hadn't really experienced much racism and things like that from people who didn't look like me my whole life. To step into this environment and be like, "We're in VIP seats, not in the regular ones." You think people have a little bit more sophisticated attitude. Then there's plenty of space. There's all the space in the world because there's a VIP area for all of the stages they had. It's not like it was crowded.

India Jackson:                    Yet another woman comes by and is like, "Hey, somebody sitting here?" "Yeah, someone's sitting here." Steps all on the seat before I can say, "Don't do it," all over our shit. Leaves her footprint on our bag, and then when I'm like, "Can you please not stand on our shit?" Because by then she had already annoyed the fuck out of me. Then proceeds to take her foot off of our stuff but still take over the seat and I was just like, "Whatever. Okay, I'ma just woosah, I'm a let it go." Then her girlfriend comes by and throws her food trash underneath the seat and I then went from zero to eight real quick.

Erica Courdae:                   I might've been on 10, but you went to eight, but still eight for you is a lot.

India Jackson:                    It takes a lot to get me to eight, but I'm on eight. "Woosah, let me breathe some of this contact high coming from the other area so I don't look like the angry black woman flipping out on the very few white women here." Her friend and her then decide that they want to dance and out of having at least a good... wow, I can't even put my finger on the amount of distance. Let's say three SUVs length of space to work with. That's a reference that most people have. Three small SUVs width of space away from me. She keeps bumping into me because that's how close she needs to dance to me. I'm wearing my nice shoes, and I'm like-

Erica Courdae:                   Taking up space.

India Jackson:                    ... "Can you please give me a little more space? There's plenty of room." Very politely, very meekly, killing her with kindness. Eventually she stepped on my foot and I was like, "That is it."

Erica Courdae:                   "I'm done. I'm through."

India Jackson:                    "I tried to give you all the credit. I've tried to give you all the chances. Please go somewhere else. Please." I don't know what it was about that. Okay, for the listeners, I didn't hit nobody. I promise. I wanted to, but I walked away from that, and can I say it was the first time in my life that I almost, I don't know what it was, but I almost wanted to cry in that situation. Because I'm like, "This is supposed to be for diversity. This is supposed to be an all love, all fun event, and even we can't have this. You still have to intrude on my space. You still have to step on my bag. You still have to leave your footprint on my shit. You still have to leave your trash underneath my friend's seat. You still have to bump into me and remind me that you're here. Then you can step on my foot in the process and there's no, sorry. There's no, 'Maybe I should give this girl her space. I've got all the room in the world.' Nothing. There's no consideration for how you're making the people around you feel."

India Jackson:                    I don't know how to put better words to it, but it made me feel so fucking small, so small. I was like, "We need to have this conversation because I think that this is the experience in a very lighthearted, almost funny way at a concert, but people go through so much more than even I went through in that situation. I'm like, "I get it now. I can't even imagine how it feels to not be able to walk down the street and feel safe." I can't. This is one small situation for me, but it made so many other things that I see people of color, people who are trans, people who are homosexual, people who don't fit the status quo and therefore hatred is generated towards them. How do they feel when they're not in a safe space?

Erica Courdae:                   Well, and that's the conversation that's not had often enough, and it's also not had with that conversation, what does it look like to step into a space from a place of, "I enjoy this, I appreciate this, but I understand that this is not my space and I am not going to take up too much space. I am not going to come in and make it all about me." It's very difficult when, going back to the example of the Target thing and the whole, here are these products that you really didn't think about.

Erica Courdae:                   If you go into Target, the black haircare section is very small in comparison to the haircare for everybody else. It might even say it's just black hair care, but textured or ethnic hair, is very small compared to everything else. It's very often that the footprint by the person of color is so much smaller in reference to everything else. But yet even in a space like Afropunk, the people taking up the smaller footprint that happened to be white were determined that that wasn't okay. I'm not going to say that was everybody. I'm going to say that, that was with these people in your experience. But I do not believe by any stretch that this is a completely isolated incident that is not normal.

India Jackson:                    Yeah, definitely I'll say it completely bought all the experiences and things that we've talked about on this podcast over time and just made it instantly real. Like, "Oh, this is the work that you're doing." My gratitude for people who show up and want to be an imperfect ally, they want to make change, and are willing to have these conversations that they have with you to get these breakthroughs and to facilitate the changes that we need in this world. My appreciation for that just went up so much more because I'm like, "Here I am in a safe space and I still have to fight for my space."

India Jackson:                    But then the other side of that, bringing it to something more positive, is it did make me think about the programming that we get as people who are marginalized, as women, as people of color, as whatever it may be. That it's not okay to take up space, and why is that? If it's that easy for this person to step into an environment, where maybe they should have been the ones not feeling so safe, I mean if we're going to be honest, or maybe they were the ones that could have felt small but they didn't. Why is it that people who are marginalized don't have that? Why do we not necessarily have the innate ability to say, "It's okay for me to take up space? It's okay for me to show up. It's okay to ask for what I want. It's okay to say 'I need this radius around me and don't step on my fucking bag.'"

Erica Courdae:                   Word. That's a mic drop because it's accurate. Honestly I think I do want to bring back that topic of taking up space and what does it look like when you are learning what it is to fully take up space as you are when you are marginalized. Whether it's because of your race, your gender, your sexual orientation, the way that you choose to live, love or worship, any of these kinds of things. Just living your life for the sake of example, people that are white that have no problem taking up space. I don't think that this is everybody, I don't believe in blanket statements, but I think that it is too often that taking up space is normalized as just a part of what you do, and that's not always the case for everyone else.

Erica Courdae:                   My action item, and I want you to tell me if you agree with it, India is, if you are white, where are you taking up space that maybe you shouldn't be, and if you are black or brown or trans... I need you to take up more space and it goes to me as well, and maybe that'll be part of talking about it again is me acknowledging where I need to take up more space because I have a couple of them that I could think of. But I think that considering either, where can you take up less if you already have a good stake or where can you take up more if you need to take up more landscape, is the action item for today.

India Jackson:                    I think it's a great one. It's one that I definitely began to ask myself after that experience. I might even want to take it a step further if it's okay with you, Erica-

Erica Courdae:                   Mm-hmm (affirmative), let's do it.

India Jackson:                    ... and say, for people who are fitting into these areas where it is okay to take up space and they're taking up a lot, where do you see someone else who might not feel as comfortable doing it because they don't fit your demographic and where can you reach out a hand to them? Where can you support them?

Erica Courdae:                   This is also a point where I can say to you, if you are doing this and you're not sure where the line is between helping or assisting and white saviorism, we can have that conversation too. You can contact me and then we can do a one-one call where you can explore what it looks like to actually be in action from a place of imperfect allyship, and when you want to be aware of not stepping into white saviorism.

India Jackson:                    Yes, because I've seen the other side of that and it doesn't feel good to watch someone feel like they're your white savior.

Erica Courdae:                   It's not, let's not do that either. it's not helpful. I think, and maybe that's another episode. Yeah. If you think that that's a good one by all means I'd like for you to tell me what you think. You can come on over and email me hello@ericacourdae.com, or come on over to Instagram and tell me what your thoughts are around white saviorism versus imperfect allyship. If you have some questions there and all those good things. But we're going to actually bring this back and go a little bit more into the taking up space conversation. Again, tell me if you want to talk about white saviorism versus imperfect allyship. All right. As always, thank you India.

India Jackson:                    Thank you for having me Erica.

Erica Courdae:                   Pause on the Play is just one iteration of how I use conversation to create connection. My one-on-one calls is another. This is where you can get support on how your beliefs and values are showing up for you in life and in business. How you support and serve your clients with intention, how you are sharing your message to let people know that you curated a space with them in mind and that you want to talk with them and hold space for them to have a seat at the table. Hop on over to ericacourdae.com today and register for a tea time chat. These are the connection calls, so I can further discuss your needs and create a plan of action with you that's personalized for your brand in order to further its evolution.

Pause on a Play is one iteration of how we use conversation to create connection. Our one on one calls, is another. This is where you can get support on how your beliefs and values around diversity, equity and inclusion, are showing up for your business. How you vote with your dollars, how you are sharing your message to let people know that you curated a space with them in mind, that you want to talk with them and hold space with them to have a seat at the table.

Hop on over to ericacourdae.com today, and register for a complimentary tea time chat. These are our connection calls, so we can hop on, discuss your needs, and create a plan of action that's personalized for your brand to further it's evolution.

The conversations we have here are to normalize the challenging things and make them a part of your normal exchanges. This is how we remove stigma and create real change and connection, cross lines and recreate boundaries to support, not separate.

If you enjoyed this podcast, show me some love by subscribing, sharing it with a friend, or leaving us a review. Reviews are the fuel to keep the podcast engine going. Let's get more people dropping the veil and challenging their thoughts, feelings, and actions. Speaking of keeping it going, if you don't already follow and engage with us over on Instagram @ericacourdae, come on over there and do that. I really want to talk with you, so DM me and let's do this.

I love being here and creating the bridge for you to walk over to become the change that you want to see. Join us next time, and until then, keep the dialogue going. Bye.

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